Beautiful amigo! Just plain beautiful!
Dual 1219 Wow&Flutter?
- Thread starter Fishead
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Is that a newer version of the idler? Mine hasn't such a wide rubber lip
Personally, I’d try and chase down your issues a little more before wholesale throwing parts at it.
Sort out your motor issues (from other thread) first and then start chasing the lowest numbers you can pull.
You can easily throw a couple hundred bucks in new parts at it and it get no better….
Sort out your motor issues (from other thread) first and then start chasing the lowest numbers you can pull.
You can easily throw a couple hundred bucks in new parts at it and it get no better….
Not rubber. It’s a harder silicone like material. No idea what its actually made of though.
That’s somewhere around 2+ years ago. No idea what he was (or is) selling. You’d have to ask audiovault.
Yes, that is exactly the premise I am using and new parts is the last resort. In my way of thinking, this tt has not had a very rough life at all and I know how my Dad took care of it and how I've handled it since acquiring it. There must be something that I'm overlooking or not doing quite right, and I think all roads lead to the idler or the motor. I can't see how the motor isn't properly connected/wired because he bought it straight from Dual, and Dual provided it directly to the Audio Clubs in Germany that US soldiers were buying them from. One typically used a transformer as Germany has 220volt supply, or as in this case where the option is available, a simple switch gets rotated between 110 and 220 and it is currently set to 110 because when my Dad last used it, he had moved to the States and therefore it was 110v. Maybe turning that switch back and forth between 220 and 110 is a good idea? Could knock a little oxidation off of the contacts, hit it with a little Deoxit D5 while I'm at it......no? Clean the on/off contacts while I'm at it also seems logical as someone else mentioned earlier in either this thread or the other one.....
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Have you “sanded” the idler much?
The motors are “constant speed” (or are supposed to be) and the differences in hz are accounted for in the “pulley” (Ie: the cone on the shaft). Different diameter cones for europe and NA power (60hz vs etc). I ran into this with my belt drive 1249. Had a 50hz unit on it and was driven too fast on 60hz. Changed the pulley on the shaft to a 60hz one and all was right with the world again.
If you have reduce the diameter of the idler wheel, you change the ratio between the idler wheel and the pulley.
Other than that, I’d go back to the speed change mechanism. More so if you had that apart. The speed is changed and fine tuned by moving the entire idler assembly up and down the pulley “cone”. If its hanging up or not moving properly, its not going to ride on the appropriate diameter of the pulley cone.
I hope that makes sense because its hard to describe in words what makes sense when looking at it…
The motors are “constant speed” (or are supposed to be) and the differences in hz are accounted for in the “pulley” (Ie: the cone on the shaft). Different diameter cones for europe and NA power (60hz vs etc). I ran into this with my belt drive 1249. Had a 50hz unit on it and was driven too fast on 60hz. Changed the pulley on the shaft to a 60hz one and all was right with the world again.
If you have reduce the diameter of the idler wheel, you change the ratio between the idler wheel and the pulley.
Other than that, I’d go back to the speed change mechanism. More so if you had that apart. The speed is changed and fine tuned by moving the entire idler assembly up and down the pulley “cone”. If its hanging up or not moving properly, its not going to ride on the appropriate diameter of the pulley cone.
I hope that makes sense because its hard to describe in words what makes sense when looking at it…
I have not "sanded" the idler very much, just very lightly touched it to some 220grit sandpaper that I mounted on a small block of wood to give me a hard and consistent backing surface for it. I touched it to the spinning idler, mounted (very gently) on my drill until I just saw a bit of a dark streak forming on the sandpaper and then backed off, repeating this process maybe 3-4 times. I'll see if I can't get a close-up pic of the idler.
Yes, and mine has the cone for the 60hz that we have here in the USA.
It was my understanding that the diameter of the idler wheel, however, does not affect the platter turning speed. Read that somewhere else on another thread here on AK, believe it was @NoTransistors who mentioned that but I could be wrong about that. In any case, the very light dressing that I did with the idler wheel should not, in my growing but still very limited understanding of the thing, affect speed. W&F? Now that's another matter and I really don't know about that one???
Yes, you're absolutely correct about the speed selector governing the movement of the idler mechanism upward and downward. I have it working perfectly now that I've taken it all apart (very carefully) and cleaned it, along with any other points along the way affecting the movement of the idler mechanism or the wheel itself. The wheel spins very freely, and the linkages also move without any restriction as far as I can tell aside from the tiny springs that pull on them to engage the wheel. So yeah, all that you said makes perfect sense to me as I've been in there "living with it" for the better part of 3 days now.
YES!!! And that's what I've been saying all along, that in order for me to get the right speed, I have to adjust the pulley so far upward that the idler touches it at the "step" separating the speeds. When it does that, it makes sense that things get wonky in terms of W&F it would seem as the speed changes, sometimes pretty drastically like from 33.38 to 35.84 without me doing so much as touching the thing. I have concluded that this is due to the idler moving into that step and out of it, higher speeds when it's in there and lower as it finds the smooth area of the cone again. Hope that makes sense, but if you look at your idler you will see the steps I'm talking about and how they are separated by a very smallish "ridge," for lack of a better term to call it.....
If its anything like the mechanism on my 1229q, it can be misaligned of assembled a bit off and affect the speed selection.
You’d have to reduce the size of the idler a significant amount to make a speed change. Your description doesn’t even come close to meet that amount of change.
However, it is possible you’ve given the “tire” a very slight “out of round” by doing the sanding by hand in a drill. That would drive up the wf. Although it may feel like you’re giving constant pressure, our muscles just don’t work that way. They “pulse”. I chuck things up in the lathe if I want to make something “round”. My hand pressure just can’t match that kind of precision.
Does it matter in your application? Hard to say. It’s a matter of how sensitive the table drive is to minute changes. Without it here in front of me to work on it, I can’t say one way or the other. Its just a guess.
Those crafty Germans machined these things to pretty tight tolerances. It might not look like it, but even the stamped steel bits are pretty picky about bow close they ate to oem specs. Even a slight bend can throw it all out of whack. I had a lock pawl on my 1249 (looks like a bent copper catch) that looked fine but the table juat would not work right. Bought an nos one, installed it and everything worked fine. Looked at the old one under close magnification and you could see where someone had changed the bend on the end ever so slightly. Almost imperceptible, but was enough to mess up the mech…
You’d have to reduce the size of the idler a significant amount to make a speed change. Your description doesn’t even come close to meet that amount of change.
However, it is possible you’ve given the “tire” a very slight “out of round” by doing the sanding by hand in a drill. That would drive up the wf. Although it may feel like you’re giving constant pressure, our muscles just don’t work that way. They “pulse”. I chuck things up in the lathe if I want to make something “round”. My hand pressure just can’t match that kind of precision.
Does it matter in your application? Hard to say. It’s a matter of how sensitive the table drive is to minute changes. Without it here in front of me to work on it, I can’t say one way or the other. Its just a guess.
Those crafty Germans machined these things to pretty tight tolerances. It might not look like it, but even the stamped steel bits are pretty picky about bow close they ate to oem specs. Even a slight bend can throw it all out of whack. I had a lock pawl on my 1249 (looks like a bent copper catch) that looked fine but the table juat would not work right. Bought an nos one, installed it and everything worked fine. Looked at the old one under close magnification and you could see where someone had changed the bend on the end ever so slightly. Almost imperceptible, but was enough to mess up the mech…
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Unless the brass pulley has a silly amount of wear, it was machined that way.
That is correct, they are indeed machined that way and when your idler wheel touches that lip, it will make the speed go wonky. I had to set my pulley to very, very close proximity to that lip to get the speed up to where it needs to be and sometimes it will catch it a bit too much and create, what I believe, the swings in the speed and moreover, I believe, the excessive W&F I'm getting. I'm simply not able to get much beyond about 31.2rpm if I set the idler to the center of the step, as is instructed in the service manual, and even the most extreme setting of the pitch control (full clockwise, about 4 o'clock) still only gets me maybe to 32.3rpm so you see why I had to actually raise the pulley?
Here you go, not sure if much can be gleaned from it but just in case:
PS - Speed selector is at 78rpm, so as I said, I have it set so the idler wheel contacts the very bottom of that step on the pulley and still only getting about 75rpm or so.....
Absolutely agree but I don't have a lathe.....wish I did!
One of the advantages of being a “mechanical” guy I guess.
Lathe and mill at the ready:
Mig, Tig and plasma as well:
My 1229Q came to me with a tone arm shaped like a banana. Klaus said he straightens them with a long phillips screwdriver, but that wasn’t good enough for me:
Built a jig a few thou under the tube size with a bullet end on it. Some lubricant and once I had the tube in place, I took one of my double roller knurling tools and made two delrin rollers for it. Then used that to press the tube to round and true across its length. Ended up with 2 thou runout and then polished it. Overkill? Possibly. Satisfy that little rat gnawing at the back of my brain that its not as close to true as I can get it? Sure did.
Love building/fixing/problem solving stuff. Its my happy place…but sometimes, it can be a sickness too….lol!
A thought: does the motor pulley have a set screw holding it in place? If it does, have you disturbed it? Just another guess, but it may be possible the pulley is out of place. Iirc on my 1229q, its just “bottomed” on the motor shaft and tightened in place.
Also, was the table always running like this or is it only after you took some of it apart and reassembled?
Totally sick!!! And I'm green with envy, especially that you have the knowledge and understanding to use all of that equipment! Really nice setup there Herr tourmax! And great work with that arm tube.....that's real AK at work!
Yes, there is a set screw on the side of the pulley that allow for removal. Then, there is a screw in the top of the pulley that allows one to raise and lower the pulley and set, permitting repetition of settings and keeping things somewhat controlled. It's a really nice concept and works well. Are you sure your 1229Q didn't have that little (very small and in a hole in the top of the pulley) adjustment screw on top?
Well, it wasn’t an overnight process. You’re looking at the end point of a 60 year arc of learning, wrenching and accumulating the equipment I needed for the hobbies I wanted to do. Been a fun ride and now, if I can’t buy it, I build it!
Been a while since I’ve had it apart. Gimme a sec to pull the platter…I’m in RCA interconnect cable building mode right now.
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Yep, height screw in the middle:
I’ve just never had to mess with it.
For comparison, heres my 1229Q on 78:
I only use 33 so no idea if thats “on” or “off”. I calibrate to 33 because the rest doesn’t matter to me. No 78’s and I think I’ve only got one 45 and thats because it was part of a Queen package deal. I think it was part of the “flash gordon” album pack IIRC….
I’ve just never had to mess with it.
For comparison, heres my 1229Q on 78:
I only use 33 so no idea if thats “on” or “off”. I calibrate to 33 because the rest doesn’t matter to me. No 78’s and I think I’ve only got one 45 and thats because it was part of a Queen package deal. I think it was part of the “flash gordon” album pack IIRC….
That doesn't matter.
The idler can be any size, it directly transfers the motion of the pulley to the rim.
Do the math. regardless of the ratio of idler to pulley or the ratio of the pulley to rim, the ratio of pulley to rim is what matters. Call the idler 1 in both cases.
That's why it's called an Idler Wheel (gear).
"The idler gear is a "bridge" in a gear train that can change the direction of rotation without altering the fundamental speed or torque relationship between the input and output shafts."
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