I don't think anyone is saying that at all. They clearly are high quality, only that better yet exist out there, though for the most part at notably higher cost.
Highend Tonearm Dimishing returns?
- Thread starter sony6060
- Start date
nailer
audionerd
According to a DD TT refurbisher, plinth builder and SME dealer (M series) I've gotten to know quite well, the 3012R arm is clearly superior to the M2-12R both in construction quality (especially the bearings) and performance. He has personal experience with both.
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moray james
Super Member
Have ya got 3$ and a hour?
a bud of mine has a thread at diy audio titled "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/173861-my-latest-iteration-nanooks-219-tonearm.html"
you can build an arm which is as good or better than the 309 SME for dirt. Best regards Moray James
a bud of mine has a thread at diy audio titled "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/173861-my-latest-iteration-nanooks-219-tonearm.html"
you can build an arm which is as good or better than the 309 SME for dirt. Best regards Moray James
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gusten
Addicted Member
What is really high end when it comes to a tonearm? In principle it would be an arm that is very difficult to improve, that would perform as good as it gets.
Then comes the question, in what areas would it be difficult to improve: it must have close to zero resonances and be totally rigid, regardless of what TT we use it on and with which cartridge. It should be damped, or have an adjustable damping that can perfectly fit the cartridge and the total eff mass.
The bearings should be rigid and smooth enough and the pivot must not vibrate or move.
So what is really high end that cannot easily be improved.
gusten
EWizard
Super Member
No doubt. But isn't there always something out there "better"?
Even high end arms have arms that are better, albeit more expensive.
What arm sits at the pinnacle of cost vs. performance? I don't know but the Jelco is certainly a very good bang for the buck at ~$750.
Yes, I think from almost everyone I can think of who has run the 750 I cannot think of one who did not think it very fine and a relative bargain. I'm about to put to use a Sumiko MMT that I have; elder, shorter relative of the Jelco 750. Not quite as good by most reckoning, but still a considerable arm. There are some terrific older arms and some new ones. Perhaps the very best to be had are newer, but the basic technique and materials to make a first class arm have been around a long time indeed.
Beobloke
Super Member
With all due credit to your friend's ingenuity, when it came to a decision between "company who has been making highly regarded tonearms since 1959" versus "bloke in a shed with an arrow shaft, a saw and a bulldog clip", I know where I'd put my money...
gusten
Addicted Member
dogscanskate
Super Member
Using an arrow shaft is what the Naim Aro is built around. They bought arrows that were used in the 1988 Olympic games if memory serves me well. It turned out to be one fine tonearm.
Another AK member, Mark W iirc uses the point of arrows as spikes for his system. Many things audio can be built around such a mundane thing as an arrow
.
GreatTone
Super Member
If I were spending $750 for an arm, I would at least take a look at Audiomods. The kit arm can be built for about $550 with very high-quality wire; an assembled arm is about $750.
http://www.audiomods.co.uk
I built the kit, and it was a quantum jump over my previous RB300. Much, much better in every respect.
Pio1980
AK Member
DIY or hired DIY is a good dodge to better performance for the buck as buying used with the expectation that some refurb' and mod'ing/updating may be necessary and will compound the value of the result with pre-owned. Some DiYers also sell their project when they move on.
Vintage Audio can, within a few product groups, still perform great.
When it comes to tonearms, cartridges, speakers, cables, platters, damping and maybe other areas, developments of material, chemicals, microscopic assembling have taken a HUGE step forward from the years of the outdated tonearms in debate here.
So most of the arms you mention would never perform as a present high end arm.
S-arms are not in use on any great gear any more.
They simply don't sound good compared to todays standard anymore.
EWizard
Super Member
Not sure what the pivot to spindle is on the Audiomod but one of the reasons I went with the Jelco was because of the amount of modding of the Empire plinth.
Very little modifications were needed.
As I understand, there are Linn arms that also need very little modifications on an Empire plinth.
moray james
Super Member
so whaat are you trying t say?
it's all about the geometry and the build and not nearly so much about the materials. You make it sound like my friends project is a waste of time and money.
For heavens sake it a few dollars worth of materials and about an hour or two of time. I cannot believe that anyone would expect high end fit and finist for even twenty time the cost. This is about DIY not fancy finished show and tell products.
Take a look at a WTA some time, not one part in that arm requires precision machining and yet is it a fine high performance tone arm all the precision you need is dialed in on set up. Just because something costs a lot does not always mean that you are getting a lot for your money.
I think that you are dismissing my friends work for the wrong reason. Nothing wrong with fine looking projects but fit and finish are expensive and difficult to do. If you also want fine fit and finish then that will be part of what makes you purchase what you do and that is perfectly understandable but don't think that every fine looking piece out there performs as well as it looks because many do not. If you care to look you can fine many DIY projects which are extremely well finished but you will also find that the cost and complexity will also rise dramatically when a high priority is placed upon the visuals of a build. Just my two cents worth on the topic. Best regards Moray James.
PS: please note that I made a mistake when I first posted my friends SME is a 309. I apologize for the error..
it's all about the geometry and the build and not nearly so much about the materials. You make it sound like my friends project is a waste of time and money.
For heavens sake it a few dollars worth of materials and about an hour or two of time. I cannot believe that anyone would expect high end fit and finist for even twenty time the cost. This is about DIY not fancy finished show and tell products.
Take a look at a WTA some time, not one part in that arm requires precision machining and yet is it a fine high performance tone arm all the precision you need is dialed in on set up. Just because something costs a lot does not always mean that you are getting a lot for your money.
I think that you are dismissing my friends work for the wrong reason. Nothing wrong with fine looking projects but fit and finish are expensive and difficult to do. If you also want fine fit and finish then that will be part of what makes you purchase what you do and that is perfectly understandable but don't think that every fine looking piece out there performs as well as it looks because many do not. If you care to look you can fine many DIY projects which are extremely well finished but you will also find that the cost and complexity will also rise dramatically when a high priority is placed upon the visuals of a build. Just my two cents worth on the topic. Best regards Moray James.
PS: please note that I made a mistake when I first posted my friends SME is a 309. I apologize for the error..
I'm curious if this is actually true. While there have been improvements in some types of manufacturing techniques and some materials, labor costs have gotten much higher, and the potential market is small enough that it must be cost prohibitive to set up a production line that can take advantage of some of these advances for such a small number of products.
I haven't kept all that close attention on the very high end, partly because I'll never have that kind of money, but also because what I mostly saw was more and more attention to conspicuous consumption regardless of whether it had anything to do with performance (half inch thick face plates, gold plated tonearms etc.).
I also have to say I don't see evidence of all that much innovation in arm design in terms of materials or assembly. The Well Tempered Arm was truly innovative, and that arm (Shick?) with the magnets might also be, but for the most part, most of the arm improvements I am aware of simply reflect the fact that if you spend more when designing and making an arm, you can do more than if you spend less (assuming the same amount of smarts in both cases). Which is not the same a HUGE step forward.
But I'm happy to be shown that I'm wrong. But so far all I see is the claim being made.
I could serve a pallette of goodies here but to convince you I will just point out a very few examples:
#1
Materials.
Carbon Fiber
This material were not in any production line in the 70s/80s
Look at e.g. aviation in general.
#2
Tolerances.
Just look at car engines.
#3
Innovation
3D printers
Digital production line control
Metaphysics
DNA
Balifly
Listening
I run 4 tables and own 5 arms. 2 Magnapan Unitrac 1, a Jelco 750D, a Project 9cc, and a Mayware Formula 4 that is undergoing refurb. I like all 5 arms and would have a hard time ranking them due to effective mass differences. The Mayware, and Jelco rely on cartridge matching heavily while the Unitrac 1 and Project 9cc are more tolerant and will allow a wider range of cartridges function at their best. (Carbon Fiber arms possibly?)
All 5 are High performance arms. High end arms is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not ready to drop big$$$ on a SME V, Dynavector, or Ortofon to find out if these beat my current arms, when these arms do a more than adequate job in my rigs.
The real key is finding the proper match, like the Sonus Blue Gold in the Mayware arm, or the Sumiko Blackbird in the Project 9cc arm. Both combo's are superb in a table with a black background.
I plan on using the Jelco 750D arm as my mono arm due to it's high effective mass, and the low compliance and weight of the Mono Cartridges under present consideration.
I would like to own a SME 312 arm at some point though.:scratch2:
Regards,
Jim
All 5 are High performance arms. High end arms is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm not ready to drop big$$$ on a SME V, Dynavector, or Ortofon to find out if these beat my current arms, when these arms do a more than adequate job in my rigs.
The real key is finding the proper match, like the Sonus Blue Gold in the Mayware arm, or the Sumiko Blackbird in the Project 9cc arm. Both combo's are superb in a table with a black background.
I plan on using the Jelco 750D arm as my mono arm due to it's high effective mass, and the low compliance and weight of the Mono Cartridges under present consideration.
I would like to own a SME 312 arm at some point though.:scratch2:
Regards,
Jim
Really?
Not for rigid constructions.
