Highend Tonearm Dimishing returns?

[fiddlefye]

The time period that I owned an ET II, the 2.5 had already come out. When I spoke with Bruce he was offering the magnesium arm wand as an option for low compliance cartridges, don't recall the carbon fiber being available then. Bruce is one of the great guys in audio, so darn smart, but very polite and unassuming, and very willing to share his knowledge and give advice. What a great guy, and I thought the ET II was a wonderful arm.

I have been considering a SME 309 or IV for my Thorens 124. Been speaking with a longtime SME dealer in the UK about them. Now this dealer relates stories that the IV and V have had slight alterations in sound due to refinements in parts and assembly technique, along with a different wire being used. Now is this gospel according to SME? No, but I have no reason to disbelieve a very respected dealer.

I have only heard the Dynavector arms in passing, and never would claim any experience with them. The systems I heard them in were excellent though. A couple of years ago I considered buying one, as a couple hit Audiogon then. But I dallied a bit and they sold. The Dynavdctor arms still command a substantial price, and are sought after. Not sure if I could fit one on the Thorens though.

Thanks for the post, it was an interesting read.

Regards
Mister Pig

i guess the way the 124 is designed you either have to be relatively short or quite long in an arm, no?

I was another looking at those Dynavector arms at that time, but timing is all and it wasn't my time. How it goes.

I did have a question for you: which of the Schroeder arms were you referring to, what model? I'd love to do a bit more reading on them as I'm not likely to see one in the flesh any time soon and they sure are interesting.

Nice to see all of those interesting possibilities and for me at least the more description of what they are actually like to work with is the best part. I clearly need to get out more....

 

[Pio1980]

I thought long and hard before voting with my funds for a pre-loved pre-mounted ET-2, it's not the perfect arm but it has good design and build with simplicity going for it as well as being my pref as an LT.

 

[moray james]

The Opus3 Cantus/Continuo arm and table has been in production about 27 years now. Designed by the late Bo Hansson of Opus 3 recording fame. The Cantus arm was an exercise to design an arm which had better performance than the Lou Souther TriQuarts design which Bo imported into Europe at the time. Lou Souther later went on to sell both his designs and design skills to Clear Audio.
The Cantus is a fine example of elegant engineering combined with simplicity. Taken to the extreme you can look at the Clear Audio Statement which is a copy of the early version of the Cantus, each at the opposite end of the spectrum using the same design. For all the precision and adjustment capability of the Statement it will not work any better than Bo's simple original version which Bo later went on to improve. Hope that this is of interest. Best regards Moray James.

PS The Cantus and Continuo have been kept in production by a close associate of Bo's.
http://www.continuo.se/sidaindex_e.html
http://www.atelier13-usa.com/

 

[Pio1980]

The Opus3 Cantus/Continuo arm and table has been in production about 27 years now. Designed by the late Bo Hansson of Opus 3 recording fame. The Cantus arm was an exercise to design an arm which had better performance than the Lou Souther TriQuarts design which Bo imported into Europe at the time. Lou Souther later went on to sell both his designs and design skills to Clear Audio.
The Cantus is a fine example of elegant engineering combined with simplicity. Taken to the extreme you can look at the Clear Audio Statement which is a copy of the early version of the Cantus, each at the opposite end of the spectrum using the same design. For all the precision and adjustment capability of the Statement it will not work any better than Bo's simple original version which Bo later went on to improve. Hope that this is of interest. Best regards Moray James.

PS The Cantus and Continuo have been kept in production by a close associate of Bo's.
http://www.continuo.se/sidaindex_e.html
http://www.atelier13-usa.com/

I mentioned this elegant thing some time back, glad to see it here. I recall from my research that Bo never achieved a 'final' refined version of the Cantus while he was active as it stayed somewhat a science fair project in reality. Hopefully the present version got it ready for prime time, the pic doesn't indicate that being the case.
Interesting that Clearaudio uses it and the Souther as basis for their LTs. AFAIK things didn't go well between Lou and Peter after the sale, dunno how Peter got the use of Bo's Cantus twin-wheel/slotted tube rail.

 

[fiddlefye]

The Opus3 Cantus/Continuo arm and table has been in production about 27 years now. Designed by the late Bo Hansson of Opus 3 recording fame. The Cantus arm was an exercise to design an arm which had better performance than the Lou Souther TriQuarts design which Bo imported into Europe at the time. Lou Souther later went on to sell both his designs and design skills to Clear Audio.
The Cantus is a fine example of elegant engineering combined with simplicity. Taken to the extreme you can look at the Clear Audio Statement which is a copy of the early version of the Cantus, each at the opposite end of the spectrum using the same design. For all the precision and adjustment capability of the Statement it will not work any better than Bo's simple original version which Bo later went on to improve. Hope that this is of interest. Best regards Moray James.

PS The Cantus and Continuo have been kept in production by a close associate of Bo's.
http://www.continuo.se/sidaindex_e.html
http://www.atelier13-usa.com/

Interesting, simple, compact and reasonably priced as well. Have you heard one? They look like they would extremely flexible in terms of the sort of able they would work on as well. What sort of cart range can they carry?

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Audiocraft is up there with the very finest. They made many of the Audio-Technica tonearms if not all of them in the era. Audiocraft tonearms are very well designed, well built, and practical daily choices. Remember, Ultralyd, SME tonearms for many, many years have been a professional reference standard. And had among the best engineering, craftsmanship, and precision of their kind. They were way ahead of the game even in 1959 and have advanced in rational ways.

 

[andyecon]

I hope that my AC-3000 conforms to your view here

Audiocraft is up there with the very finest. They made many of the Audio-Technica tonearms if not all of them in the era. Audiocraft tonearms are very well designed, well built, and practical daily choices. Remember, Ultralyd, SME tonearms for many, many years have been a professional reference standard. And had among the best engineering, craftsmanship, and precision of their kind. They were way ahead of the game even in 1959 and have advanced in rational ways.

 

[moray james]

I mentioned this elegant thing some time back, glad to see it here. I recall from my research that Bo never achieved a 'final' refined version of the Cantus while he was active as it stayed somewhat a science fair project in reality. Hopefully the present version got it ready for prime time, the pic doesn't indicate that being the case.
Interesting that Clearaudio uses it and the Souther as basis for their LTs. AFAIK things didn't go well between Lou and Peter after the sale, dunno how Peter got the use of Bo's Cantus twin-wheel/slotted tube rail.

I expect that CA simply took the design they are so very well financed and Bo was not. I asked Bo why he did not sue CA and he said he did not have the time or money necessary and that they had not even copied the best version of the Cantus. The first version with the flange on the edge of the bearings which allows the arm to act as a rolling knife edge bearing. CA went with a curved bearing surface I imagine as a way to be able to play terribly warped records even thought they sound bad it makes for wonderful sales pitch for people who have more money than brains and who want to be able to play bad sounding records. There you go proof that it takes all kinds. Better fit and finish only raise the price and do little to nothing to improve the performance. Pride of ownership on the other hand is well served by a quality fit and finish. Bo was not able to do more nor was he willing to do more than what he thought was necessary. I personally don't agree but I do see his point. Best regards Moray James.

 

[moray james]

I own one of the last concrete Continuo/Cantus that Bo built

Interesting, simple, compact and reasonably priced as well. Have you heard one? They look like they would extremely flexible in terms of the sort of able they would work on as well. What sort of cart range can they carry?

I have an Ortofon blue on my Continuo concrete / Cantus table which was one of the last Bo build prior to heas death. The Cantus works very well with Decca's and a wide assortment of other cartridges from Grado and Musicman to mention just a few. Best regards Moray James.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Yes, your AC 3000 does conform to my view. AudioCraft tonearms are among the finest available in their era. Many owners still love their arms today.

 

[Pio1980]

The Cantus really needs an indexed garden-gate pillar like the Linatrack and a mounting better than the sticky pad but it worked as-is. Carriage bumper stops would be nice too to keep the thing in the tube and safely in adjustment. I've had one of Lou's SLA-3 since 1984 and have mod'ed it to deal with it's multitude of resonance modes.

 

[Bigerik]

I expect that CA simply took the design they are so very well financed and Bo was not. I asked Bo why he did not sue CA and he said he did not have the time or money necessary and that they had not even copied the best version of the Cantus. The first version with the flange on the edge of the bearings which allows the arm to act as a rolling knife edge bearing. CA went with a curved bearing surface I imagine as a way to be able to play terribly warped records even thought they sound bad it makes for wonderful sales pitch for people who have more money than brains and who want to be able to play bad sounding records. There you go proof that it takes all kinds. Better fit and finish only raise the price and do little to nothing to improve the performance. Pride of ownership on the other hand is well served by a quality fit and finish. Bo was not able to do more nor was he willing to do more than what he thought was necessary. I personally don't agree but I do see his point. Best regards Moray James.

Interesting info. Could have been even better with the nasty attitude.

 

[nailer]

...

I have only heard the Dynavector arms in passing, and never would claim any experience with them. The systems I heard them in were excellent though. A couple of years ago I considered buying one, as a couple hit Audiogon then. But I dallied a bit and they sold. The Dynavdctor arms still command a substantial price, and are sought after. Not sure if I could fit one on the Thorens though...

The Dynavector mounting plate is huge and would probably fit on the 12" mounting board or might just require its very own board.

 

[nailer]

Thanks for mentioning Dave Fletcher. I was his representative in New England during the late 1970s. This is back when Sumiko imported Grace products. I believe that good progress has been made in tone arm design and performance. However, it's a matter of evolution rather than revolution. I'm staring at a Grace 707 II as I type this and marvel at the execution of the design. One company that gets overlooked in terms of great performance that will go toe to toe with modern designs is Audiocraft. They were built to a very high standard.

I've never owned an Audiocraft, but according to a couple of folks I trust the 300/400 series and especially the 3000/4000 series are excellent. I call my Graham 1.5T the high-tech Audiocraft. Just a few years ago they could be had for a relative song, but not anymore. I bought the Graham about eight years ago and if I had know about Audiocraft back then

 

[fiddlefye]

I have an Ortofon blue on my Continuo concrete / Cantus table which was one of the last Bo build prior to heas death. The Cantus works very well with Decca's and a wide assortment of other cartridges from Grado and Musicman to mention just a few. Best regards Moray James.

It really does look like an interesting arm and one of the few that can be had new at a price point I could think about. It seems after a bit of reading that while it has its detractors they aren't numbered amongst the folks who actually own one. Watching one in action on a couple of youtube videos was enlightening.

 

[Mister Pig]

It really does look like an interesting arm and one of the few that can be had new at a price point I could think about. It seems after a bit of reading that while it has its detractors they aren't numbered amongst the folks who actually own one. Watching one in action on a couple of youtube videos was enlightening.

Now if you are looking for an affordable linear tracking arm, this is one worth considering also.

http://adanalog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=30

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[fiddlefye]

Now if you are looking for an affordable linear tracking arm, this is one worth considering also.

http://adanalog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=30

Regards
Mister Pig

One of those I saw at a show once, but it didn't get any play time as it was all digital getting the attention in the room while I was there. The detracting aspect for me would be where to put the air pump that it wouldn't intrude? Do they make a pump that would be quiet enough to be in the same room? Until the renovations at my house are long done and over and the dust really thoroughly clears I don't see running a linear, but down the road it would be an interesting option, especially one of the ones that isn't too hefty in overall weight. Thanks!

 

[Pio1980]

Interesting info. Could have been even better without the nasty attitude.

I get some idea that Peter Souchy may have left some wreckage and hard feelings in his wake with some of his dealings..

 

[Mister Pig]

One of those I saw at a show once, but it didn't get any play time as it was all digital getting the attention in the room while I was there. The detracting aspect for me would be where to put the air pump that it wouldn't intrude? Do they make a pump that would be quiet enough to be in the same room? Until the renovations at my house are long done and over and the dust really thoroughly clears I don't see running a linear, but down the road it would be an interesting option, especially one of the ones that isn't too hefty in overall weight. Thanks!

These do not need a hihg volume air pump. Actually when I had my Eminent Technology II it ran on a WISA air pump of roughly the same size as what the Advanced Analog needs. The WISA pump could not be heard from behind a chair, and was totally unobtrusive. Another option would be to build a small baffle box for the pump. I don't thnk it would be an issue.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Pio1980]

One of those I saw at a show once, but it didn't get any play time as it was all digital getting the attention in the room while I was there. The detracting aspect for me would be where to put the air pump that it wouldn't intrude? Do they make a pump that would be quiet enough to be in the same room? Until the renovations at my house are long done and over and the dust really thoroughly clears I don't see running a linear, but down the road it would be an interesting option, especially one of the ones that isn't too hefty in overall weight. Thanks!

I'm running a large WISA pump on it's suspension-slung base in the next room for the ET-2 and it's pretty quiet, the smaller one even more so. They should have a moderator tank to do their best BTW.