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The truth about subwoofers

Many of my friends and I had been using speaker level inputs long before we ever heard of REL and before the internet became a thing.
REL started using and promoting speaker level in 1990 (not sure when they started being sold in the US), but I never heard of them until several years later.

Never said Rel was the first to do it lol.

Obviously many with only a receiver/ integrated without pre outs used this method, they had no other choice. Rel was the manufacturer that started the myth it was superior, it was a marketing ploy, and it seems many drank the coolaid.
 
I can maybe see noise with cheap amps and powered subs.

BUT

A quality amp and powered sub should produce no undesired noise from the sub.

If I connect a powered sub's speaker level inputs to the speaker outputs of my main amp and I hear a low frequency noise (If I hear a high frequency noise, the plate amp low pass crossover is defective or bypassed and there's no LFE filter or it is defective), first I'm going to make sure there isn't a ground loop and if the noise is still there I'm going to put the scope on my amp to be sure it isn't causing the noise.
 
Never said Rel was the first to do it lol.

Obviously many with only a receiver/ integrated without pre outs used this method, they had no other choice. Rel was the manufacturer that started the myth it was superior, it was a marketing ploy, and it seems many drank the coolaid.

My point was, we did it because it sounded "superior" to us.

You seem to give REL a lot of credit for the "myth". :no:
 
Think about it some. List off in order all the chain of stuff it has to go through, and the inherent shortcomings of each chain.

You are taking a high level amplified signal that has been through several stages, then trying to drop that signal down to line level again, then amplifying that signal yet again.

Stuff we used to do with 70s/80s car audio. There is always a loss, a gain in noise, and added complexity.
I thought this was an obvious no brainer. Maybe not.
I would only use it as a last resort if I had no preamp level line out.

I guess maybe the simplest explanation, is to question, would you do this 10 times in a row? Daisy chain 10 power amps together this way.? The answer is Hell no. For the same reason it is worse to do it just one time.

Speaking as someone who spent two decades in the car audio industry at the timeframe in discussion here- there are some significant differences, between what we are doing here, and what was commonly done in car audio ("line level adapters").

1) Car audio head unit amplifier sections, are INCREDIBLY SIGNIFICANTLY MORE NOISY than the home audio amps we are talking about.

2) Car audio line level adapters were commonly being used for FULL RANGE applications. The high-frequency hiss was MUCH more audible, than in a subwoofer application- where the low-pass filter of the sub itself, reduces the hiss by SEVERAL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.

3) Many car audio head units were BTL- with DC on the outputs- and the methods used to isolate from this DC in car audio line-level adapters, were far from ideal from a sonic standpoint. This also not a factor here.

Also, the argument about "daisy chain 10 power amps" is really, a fallacious reducto ad absurdum argument. No one is suggesting doing this more times than necessary- which is usually exactly ONCE.

The one thing that cannot be denied, is that there are drawbacks to any method. While the high-level input may have a very slight noise penalty- there is no denying that the low-level subwoofer input has the drawback of the subwoofer losing the correlation to the transfer function of the main amplifier. This WILL have an effect on how well the sub amp can be integrated, in phase, time and amplitude, with the main amp- usually detrimentally. It's just a matter of which approach works better in a specific system- THIS, not the purported "cheaping out" of using high-level outputs (implying that it's only because of amps not having low-level outputs), is actually the primary reason why these high-level inputs continue to exist- even on a number of very high-end subwoofers...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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Think about it some. List off in order all the chain of stuff it has to go through, and the inherent shortcomings of each chain.

You are taking a high level amplified signal that has been through several stages, then trying to drop that signal down to line level again, then amplifying that signal yet again.

Stuff we used to do with 70s/80s car audio. There is always a loss, a gain in noise, and added complexity.
I thought this was an obvious no brainer. Maybe not.
I would only use it as a last resort if I had no preamp level line out.

I guess maybe the simplest explanation, is to question, would you do this 10 times in a row? Daisy chain 10 power amps together this way.? The answer is Hell no. For the same reason it is worse to do it just one time.

Ya those power boosters were the **** eh lol? Especially the models with built in 7 band EQ's, you were really balling then. Man were those things noisy, ya I had a few back in the day.

But I quickly moved along when better was introduced, I had separates in my car long before I even had a stereo at home.

Started with a Pioneer Super Tuner in 1974, moved up to the pictured Panasonic in 75, then the Pioneer in 78. Eventually the car audio market started to catch up and great amps like Rockford, and Alpine came along, and the rest is history.

I've been using subs for 5 decades, active, passive, powered, home, auto, marine lol. Started running twin subs in stereo more than 30yrs ago, many thought it was ridiculous, now many here are enjoying this method:dunno:

Sounds like you've been through the same lol.

Panasonic Auto Stereo.jpg

s-l400.jpg
 
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Except for the fact, that high-level inputs have been both objectively and subjectively determined to have better performance, in some cases. I've seen the measurements, and heard the results. Whether some choose to believe it or not, doesn't change the facts.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Interesting how not a single sub in this article has high level inputs. Granted, none of them are budget subs, they assume anyone spending this kind of money on a sub has separates and wouldn't need or use speaker level inputs. Just as with the 2 JL Audio subs I mentioned earlier, no speaker level inputs needed.

Now being high end they do offer the flexibility of balanced inputs, something you won't see on your typical budget powered sub with speaker level inputs.

https://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/rise-of-the-super-subwoofers-a-comparison-guide
 
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I have a JTR Captivator RS1 had it dialed to my system using REW as well as Dirac , no phase issues (better not be for how much they cost) no hum etc etc . It’s a very powerful sub that just like any could easily overpower a room if not setup correctly and I have taken the time to make sure it has been. Imo if someone takes the time to dial in their sub correctly there shouldn’t be an issue.

Audiofreak71
 
I have a JTR Captivator RS1 had it dialed to my system using REW as well as Dirac , no phase issues (better not be for how much they cost) no hum etc etc . It’s a very powerful sub that just like any could easily overpower a room if not setup correctly and I have taken the time to make sure it has been. Imo if someone takes the time to dial in their sub correctly there shouldn’t be an issue.

Audiofreak71

:bowdown:

https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-captivator-rs1

It's father is in the above comparison.
 
Interesting how not a single sub in this article has high level inputs. Granted, none of them are budget subs, they assume anyone spending this kind of money on a sub has separates and wouldn't need or use speaker level inputs. Just as with the 2 JL Audio subs I mentioned earlier, no speaker level inputs needed.

Now being high end they do offer the flexibility of balanced inputs, something you won't see on your typical budget powered sub with speaker level inputs.

https://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/rise-of-the-super-subwoofers-a-comparison-guide

No offense- but these people have already (by the article linked earlier) shown a bias against speaker-level input subs. Is it any surprise they don't recommend any with high-level inputs?

Classic case of selection bias error, most likely...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
This was one of the best-sounding subs on the market, when it came out- Martin Logan Depth:

depth-i-xray-750x750.jpg

We sold those at the shop I worked at, when they were new. Most people who bought them, still have them, over 10 years later. They are that good.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
No offense- but these people have already (by the article linked earlier) shown a bias against speaker-level input subs. Is it any surprise they don't recommend any with high-level inputs?

Classic case of selection bias error, most likely...

Regards,
Gordon.

Bias or not, the manufacturers didn't have any bias, they just knew what was best. Again, some are adding speaker outputs to reach a wider market, they like making money.
 
Interesting how not a single sub in this article has high level inputs. Granted, none of them are budget subs, they assume anyone spending this kind of money on a sub has separates and wouldn't need or use speaker level inputs. Just as with the 2 JL Audio subs I mentioned earlier, no speaker level inputs needed.

Now being high end they do offer the flexibility of balanced inputs, something you won't see on your typical budget powered sub with speaker level inputs.

https://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/rise-of-the-super-subwoofers-a-comparison-guide

Most of these, probably all, are intended for the demands of home theater. They are extreme overkill for music unless you live at studio 54. The only one listed I could find details for (the other links either are broken or lack any detailed information) only has an LFE input, meaning it is meant to be used with an AVR with LFE output. It doesn’t even have left and right line level inputs, so it is impossible to use with a 2-channel amp that doesn’t have mono sub/LFE output.

Where are you seeing the details on each of these subs?
 
hm, seems i started this saying "truly high end", and now you're complaining the examples are too high end lol. And I disagree with your comment anyway, Audiofreak71 has the bigger version of one in the comparison. Apparently you missed where I applauded him for this.

As for finding the info, it's called the internet.

once you find them you'll see they are not aimed at theaters, they are home audio subs, but nice try.
 
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...

As for finding the info, it's called the internet.

once you find them you'll see they are not aimed at theaters, they are home audio subs, but nice try.

One has Cinema in its name. Another said it’s ideal for home theater. At least one (the only one I could find info on) has no left and right lin-level input (which it would definitely have if the intent was 2-channel music). Since you looked them up, how many have separate left and right line-level input?
 
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One has Cinema in its name. Another said it’s ideal for home theater. At least one (the only one I could find info on) has no left and right lin-level input (which it would definitely have if the intent was 2-channel music). Since you looked them up, how many have separate left and right line-level input?

buy two, I'm sure those that can afford these can and do.
 
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