KEF owners thread

[arcamguy1]

Check recent YouTube videos from "Erin's Audio Corner"! He's a really good, honest fella who has a Kippel measurement set-up, and recently put out reviews of R3 Meta and Reference 1 Meta, then another where he discusses the merits of each.

Full disclosure: I'm a big KEF nut, and own Reference 1 Meta speakers and have the KEF Enthusiasts Group on Facebook.

Ken,
I’ve watched his videos, which were very helpful. If my budget allowed, the Reference 1 Metas would be an option but unfortunately not. I bet they’re great speakers.

Given the fact I like jazz vocals - Diana Krall, etc, how do you find the midrange? Do vocals have body and presence?
Thanks again for your insights. Jeff

 

[arcamguy1]

Now

Yesterday I ran up to my favorite crack dealer, Audio Video Therapy of Nashua NH. The mission was to grab their pair of KEF Reference 1 Meta speakers to do a back-to-back demo of my 2019-2021 era Reference 1's, for a fellow member of KEF Enthusiasts group on FB.

I kind of knew going in that the demo pair had been in circulation for just over a year, which means they can sell them at a significant discount. Before I could commit, I wanted to hear them in my room and on my Luxman amp. In the back of my mind was the situation I was in a couple years ago when I owned LS50's and was offered a pair of 2-week old LS50 Meta for $1,100. I bought because I could use one in my office and the other in the guest bedroom that was on its way to becoming a dedicated 2-channel room. I could barely detect a difference and deemed it "not worth the money" to upgrade if paying full price.

The demo Reference 1 Meta are in the same "Silver Satin Walnut" finish as my current Reference 1's. When I brought home the demo pair, the shop had given me the new matching stands but rather than trying to swap two different-shaped stands into the same position, I just swapped speakers on my own original Reference 1 stands. Those are MUCH better-quality stands, and both types of speaker have the exact same bolt pattern and thread.

In less than 15 minutes I knew these Reference 1 Meta were staying. The difference was far more obvious than in the LS50/LS50 Meta comparo. The go-to song I play is "It's A Long Way There" from The Little River Band. The track is a digital one from a CD entitled "The Definitive Collection." The lead guitar riffs can be a bit forward, as can also the lead singer's vocals. Here, the "MAT" (Metamaterial Absorption Technology" treatment on the tweeter of the Reference 1 Meta smooths that out just enough, but in doing so it keeps any back feed from the tweeter from ever reaching the back of the mid-range driver. That works to make the whole Uni-Q driver work more coherently than before, and it's noticeable to even my old ears. Even the bass driver seems to have benefitted, because even that output is cleaner and seems to dig just a touch deeper.

I texted John Rein @ AV Therapy to let him know my older Reference 1's are already sold, and I'll be back on Tuesday or (more likely) Wednesday to return the stands and get the boxes. My room took another step up. Next would be upgrades to the Luxman integrated in the form of an EQ-500 phono stage or a Class A integrated.View attachment 2970225

Ken,
That’s an impressive system. Jeff

 

[Ken Mitchell]

Ken,
I’ve watched his videos, which were very helpful. If my budget allowed, the Reference 1 Metas would be an option but unfortunately not. I bet they’re great speakers.

Given the fact I like jazz vocals - Diana Krall, etc, how do you find the midrange? Do vocals have body and presence?
Thanks again for your insights. Jeff

Everything in the vocals is just SO smooth and luscious! These are very balanced speakers, and as such they handle the vocals and midrange tones a well as I could imagine. I've recently had a couple of friends over who are musicians (one a guitar player, the other piano player) on separate occasions and both remarked that this system produced the most true-to-life reproduction of their instrument of choice that they've ever heard.

The R3 Meta are probably within 15% of the total sound quality of Reference 1 Meta (definitely not as deep in bass output) but at almost 1/4 the price how can one go wrong?

 

[John Parkey]

We don't have an overall KEF thread here... Just threads for specific models like the LS50 and 107... And posting in those seems like thread jacking.

So I guess I'll start one. I love this brand. Post pics of your KEFs! :thmbsp:

Greetings Matt. I have a pair of KEF Reference Model Two speakers and the treble seems soft compared to other systems I use. Have tried moving the speakers around, different pre amp and amp, different phono cartridges.

So do you know anyone who can replace the ferro fluid in the tweeters? My local speaker repair guy has warned me against doing this as he has a 50% success rate, but I do not think he has tried more than 2-3 times.

Thank you for any help you can provide. I am in the Seattle, WA, area but can ship. John

 

[Ross6860]

Greetings Matt. I have a pair of KEF Reference Model Two speakers and the treble seems soft compared to other systems I use. Have tried moving the speakers around, different pre amp and amp, different phono cartridges.

So do you know anyone who can replace the ferro fluid in the tweeters? My local speaker repair guy has warned me against doing this as he has a 50% success rate, but I do not think he has tried more than 2-3 times.

Thank you for any help you can provide. I am in the Seattle, WA, area but can ship. John

Is that the T33 tweeter?

If it is, there are several YouTube videos showing the cleaning and fluid replacement. Search for T33 or KEF 104/2 (that's what I had).

If you at all mechanically inclined it should be no issue. Certainly if a "speaker tech" won't touch them, maybe find a new tech...

Go slow, lots of pieces of paper and Q-tips. Mine were pretty cruddy and dried out. The biggest challenge is not ruining the voice coil by ham-handedly trying to take them apart. The magnet will literally "suck" the new fluid in.

It's worth the effort since you can hardly find a working T33 in nature.

Good luck.

 

[Lou G]

The Reference Model Two and all the KEF Reference speakers from that series have a Uni-Q mid range/tweeter configuration with the NT25 tweeter.

 

[John Parkey]

We don't have an overall KEF thread here... Just threads for specific models like the LS50 and 107... And posting in those seems like thread jacking.

So I guess I'll start one. I love this brand. Post pics of your KEFs! :thmbsp:

Greetings Matt. I have a pair of KEF Reference Model Two speakers and the treble seems soft compared to other systems I use. Have tried moving the speakers around, different pre amp and amp, different phono cartridges.

So do you know anyone who can replace the ferro fluid in the tweeters? My local speaker repair guy has warned me against doing this as he has a 50% success rate, but I do not think he has tried more than 2-3 times.

Thank you for any help you can provide. I am in the Seattle, WA, area but can ship. John

Is that the T33 tweeter?

If it is, there are several YouTube videos showing the cleaning and fluid replacement. Search for T33 or KEF 104/2 (that's what I had).

If you at all mechanically inclined it should be no issue. Certainly if a "speaker tech" won't touch them, maybe find a new tech...

Go slow, lots of pieces of paper and Q-tips. Mine were pretty cruddy and dried out. The biggest challenge is not ruining the voice coil by ham-handedly trying to take them apart. The magnet will literally "suck" the new fluid in.

It's worth the effort since you can hardly find a working T33 in nature.

Good luck.

Hi Ross. The KEF Reference Model Two has the NT25 tweeter (SP1353), not the older T33. Gosh, if I thought I could do this, I would not be asking for recommendations on places that can do this work. Do you have anyone you would recommend and who has worked on the NT25 tweeters with success? Thank you for your help.

 

[Ken Mitchell]

FWIW, in early September this year I restored a pair of the Reference 104/2 as a gift for my son. I had only changed out the outer surround on a pair of AR "Environmental Partners" speakers before then, and the 104/2's needed the "donuts" and grommets for the internal woofers, and ferro fluid in the tweeters.

Honestly, after watching the YouTube videos for ferro fluid in T33 tweeters, I was still apprehensive about doing it. It turned out to be less of a challenge than doing the donuts! Now I've got another pair of them on my bench awaiting the the replacement donuts, grommets and ferro fluid.

I don't know how different doing ferro fluid would be on an NT25 tweeter, but I'm less intimidated by it today than I was prior to the 2nd week of September.

 

[nerdorama]

The T33's are fairly easy to do the ferrofluid. I've done 7 of them. I think the NT25 in the coax drivers is a bit more work. I have a pair of some model of Reference with the coax drives in the basement. A friend gave them to me not working correctly. One of these days I'll rip into them and see what's wrong.

 

[Lou G]

The T33s in the 104/2 are fairly simple to replace the ferrofluid but the NT25s are more of a challenge. Here is a discussion on AK regarding refurbishing NT25 tweeters. Perhaps one of the posters in this thread may be of help.

KEF NT25 Tweeter Refurbishing (with Pictures) - and a question

THE MISSION: Having purchased a pair of KEF 103/4s about a month ago - I have set off to tear the things to pieces and get it back to peak running condition. The previous owner had done a fine job refoaming the internal bass woofers - but there is work yet to do. One tweeter sounded 'OK' at best...

www.audiokarma.org

 

[matteos]

Greetings Matt. I have a pair of KEF Reference Model Two speakers and the treble seems soft compared to other systems I use. Have tried moving the speakers around, different pre amp and amp, different phono cartridges.

So do you know anyone who can replace the ferro fluid in the tweeters? My local speaker repair guy has warned me against doing this as he has a 50% success rate, but I do not think he has tried more than 2-3 times.

Thank you for any help you can provide. I am in the Seattle, WA, area but can ship. John

Hi John! I’m not a tech at all, but there are plenty on this website, so stick around because you will find who or what you need eventually. Having said that, I’m not afraid to take a stab at something electronic related, mostly because I want to understand how something works.

If you have a go at repairing the tweeters, just remember that patience is the key and if you get stuck then just stop and ask someone, or let the problem sink in until you can figure it out. Any time I’ve rushed a project or forced something through frustration… that’s when it gets screwed up!

 

[uofmtiger]

I am really happy with my LS50 Metas. I got them for $1000 used over the summer. I was surprised to see Amazon is showing a new price of $999 right now.

Mine are in my office setup:

New Speakers by Derek, on Flickr

 

[Dony]

So I just got these 107 version 1 with the original Kube. I opened the cabinets and confirmed the woofers have been re-foamed which is awesome. So now I would to confirm if any recap work has been done or if the T33 tweeter has had the ferrofluid replaced. Any suggestions on how to accomplish that without tearing the whole speaker apart? Or at least the easiest most accurate process to verify the status?

 

[DOBIEGUY]

@Dony
I’ve been following your posts. Congratulations on your 107s. I wouldn’t be concerned with the crossovers now. The ferrofluid is more important. Have the replacement ferrofluid on hand since you have to open them to check.(and refresh them anyway) Look for the seller on Ebay who offers free shipping. His product is the same as all the others for less. If you have not done this before watch the videos on YouTube. Then watch them again. No room to make a mistake. Don’t put a soldering iron anywhere near the tweeter, cut the wires and splice them when finished.


I’m seeing your electronics with the speakers. What are you doing for power? These 107s require an amp with some serious stones.
Wimpy thirty or forty watt receivers just ain‘t gonna cut it.
Happy listening!
James

 

[Dony]

@Dony
I’ve been following your posts. Congratulations on your 107s. I wouldn’t be concerned with the crossovers now. The ferrofluid is more important. Have the replacement ferrofluid on hand since you have to open them to check.(and refresh them anyway) Look for the seller on Ebay who offers free shipping. His product is the same as all the others for less. If you have not done this before watch the videos on YouTube. Then watch them again. No room to make a mistake. Don’t put a soldering iron anywhere near the tweeter, cut the wires and splice them when finished.


I’m seeing your electronics with the speakers. What are you doing for power? These 107s require an amp with some serious stones.
Wimpy thirty or forty watt receivers just ain‘t gonna cut it.
Happy listening!
James

Hello Dobieguy,

Thanks for your response here. I will purchase the ferrofluid for the tweeters and make sure I watch the YouTube video and ensure that know the process very well before I make the attempt.

Currently I'm using a NAD 1700 preamp along with a pair of NAD 2700 amplifiers bridged to mono to power the KEF 107s. So far so good.

I'm going to have the NAD components recapped with premium capacitors and also upgrade them where applicable. I know the KEFs would sound better with better electronics, but for me this is already sounding pretty good.

Maybe someday in the future I will get some Bryston or Krell amps or even some nice tube amps, but it's not a huge priority because I like the warm NAD SQ for now.

Thanks

Don

 

[Ken Mitchell]

Today was time to get "Aroundtuit" with adding mass to my KEF Reference 1 "Performance" speaker stands. It's something that KEF recommends, and they sell their own "inert filler" for $23.99 a bag, and each bag weighs 3-1/2 pounds. They recommend 2 bags per speaker stand. That's an outrageous $6.85 per pound, and a total of USD $95.96 plus tax and shipping for enough.

No small wonder people use play sand, kitty litter (not very dense), and a variety of other materials for the job. Me, ever the industrialist I chose to use 430 stainless steel tumbling media...7/32" steel balls. It actually cost me almost 1.5x what the KEF stuff cost in total, but per pound it's only 1/3rd the cost because I got 62 pounds of it! The company in West Hartford Connecticut that I bought it from (Abbott Ball Co) gave me an extra 2 pounds, no charge. I have at least 700 feet of polyethylene sleeving for 120 roll film, leftover from my film processing days, and a good heat sealer. They got some use with this project. I filled 10 individual bags with about 3.1 pounds (1.4kg) of the non heated-treated & rough ground balls.

The combined weight of the speakers (40.1 pounds/18.23kg), the Reference Performance Stands (26.4pounds/12kg) and the 31 pounds/14.1kg of weight I just put in has them weighing 95.7 pounds/43.5kg.

With the carpet spikes probably digging deep to the subfloor, ain't no one going to easily knock one of these suckers over. Now a lot of folk say adding mass to speaker stands results in deeper bass, better separation, richer midrange, etc etc etc. I am of the opinion that the Reference 1 Meta cabinets are already VERY inert and the empty stands quite substantial, so I do not understand how mass loading affects sound much at all. Perhaps at volume the stands could be excited to a resonant frequency, and this will change it to something lower than the speakers can ever reach. That's all I got. I don't notice any immediate improvement, so I think there may be some psychoacoustics at play.

It was something that could make listening a wee bit better, but mostly it was to make the speakers more stable on stands.

 

[cpt_paranoia]

Curious as to why you chose to bag it, rather than just pour the shot into the stand voids.

Mass is one thing, but dampening of the walls is another. Direct contact would seem to give better dampening . But metal balls might rattle...

I used sharp sand for my Target stands.

 

[Ken Mitchell]

Curious as to why you chose to bag it, rather than just pour the shot into the stand voids.

Mass is one thing, but dampening of the walls is another. Direct contact would seem to give better dampening . But metal balls might rattle...

I used sharp sand for my Target stands.

I created the bags to make it easier to handle *and* keep control of little balls from rolling all over the place. Plus, I can easily remove one or more bags if it's too much. I won't spill a thing!

Honestly the difference in damping is minimal, just about impossible to hear. The Reference 1 Meta speakers and stands are already at a very high level of inert in how much vibration they can transfer, so the weight I added is primarily to make everything more stable. Given that the speakers are bolted to the stands, no one is going to try walking away with 96lb (43kg) speakers. LOL

 

[cpt_paranoia]

I created the bags to make it easier to handle *and* keep control of little balls from rolling all over the place.

Good point; I can now see that could be a nightmare...

Another advantage for sand...

The steel box section of the Targets certainly would 'sing', and the sand kils that dead.

 

[Ken Mitchell]

Good point; I can now see that could be a nightmare...

Another advantage for sand...

The steel box section of the Targets certainly would 'sing', and the sand kils that dead.

Come on over and tap on the walls of the stand uprights. Couldn't be more inert. The bags are snug up against the inner walls of the stand extrusion. Everything is well-damped. (Dampening is making something wet, this isn't that.)