What is the most inovative rock LP of all time?

[steelglam]

King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King:
Outrageous. I've got 2 collectors type LPs (German and Japanese pressings) and the gold CD (Unopened/sealed). I'm not going to open it. It's just for 'looks'. And I got it! Finally!! I've Always wanted 'that' specific 24K gold CD... and then there it was on eBay, no one was really bidding, and I got it for like $22. Dirt Cheap. I just keep it on top of my CD cabinets. It's just for NOS ITCOTCK looks. I just play the records. That album is in my top 10 favorite of all time. Absolutely no doubt about it. It's mesmorizing for me. Heard it a zillion times and I could play it right now and it would sound like the 'first time'. * Simply Outstanding. *

I think In the Court of the Crimson King should definitely make this list of innovative records. I know King Crimson weren't the first prog rock group and I know this album came out only within a few months of the first Yes album, but I feel like this album really took the style in a new direction. To my ears, at least.

 

[robgmn]

As much as I love Nirvana's first album, it was not anything new. Flipper, Melvins, and Black Flag had been doing that style for five or six years before Bleach came out. Even Soundgarden was around before Nirvana.

Right, but were any of them credited with the beginning of it?

Edison didn't invent the lightbulb, Marconi's radio patent was overturned and given to Tesla, Bell didn't invent the telephone, but...

 

[steelglam]

Right, but were any of them credited with the beginning of it?

Yes. Melvins were considered the first grunge band, inventors of the style if you will. Buzz Osborne was friends with Kurt Cobain and taught him how to play the guitar. Flipper and Black Flag were more antecedent influences.

 

[robgmn]

Yes. Melvins were considered the first grunge band, inventors of the style if you will. Buzz Osborne was friends with Kurt Cobain and taught him how to play the guitar. Flipper and Black Flag were more antecedent influences.

No dog in the fight and what you're saying may be true, but think of the it this way: "Of 1000 people surveyed when asked what band started the grunge movement?", how many of those 1,000 would say "Mudhoney" or "Melvins" or "Soundgarden", etc.? How many might say "Nirvana"?

If I ask who invented the light bulb, most people don't blurt "Humphrey Davy" or "Frederick DeMoleyns" even though they are technically more correct than "Thomas Edison".

I may still have to go with the FIRST rock album album being the most innovative though (I believe credited to Bill Haley though probably not technically correct).

 

[hanfrac]

It's gotta be the Velvet Underground & Nico. Without it, 25-50% of what comes after in rock never happens.

After that, other contenders:
Are You Experienced
The Ramones
Tommy

 

[steelglam]

No dog in the fight and what you're saying may be true, but think of the it this way: "Of 1000 people surveyed when asked what band started the grunge movement?", how many of those 1,000 would say "Mudhoney" or "Melvins" or "Soundgarden", etc.? How many might say "Nirvana"?

That has absolutely nothing to do with being innovative. The question is about what is innovative, not what popular opinion associates with a particular sound. Often times, those two things work against each other, in fact.

 

[bobspets]

That has absolutely nothing to do with being innovative. The question is about what is innovative, not what popular opinion associates with a particular sound. Often times, those two things work against each other, in fact.

That is what I was driving at

 

[DougMac]

"The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society" should be mentioned as well. It may not be as innovative as "Revolver" or "Are You Experienced?", but it was a huge departure from the Kinks. It got overshadowed by what was out there at the time, plus the ban on touring the US had diminished their audience. It's now regarded as a masterpiece.

 

[just dave]

I think these were among the most innovative.

Fragile.

Close to the edge.

Without a doubt,totally unique style of music.Dark side is also very innovative as well as Hendrix.1983 is my fav tune by Jimi btw.

 

[steelglam]

"The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society" should be mentioned as well. It may not be as innovative as "Revolver" or "Are You Experienced?", but it was a huge departure from the Kinks. It got overshadowed by what was out there at the time, plus the ban on touring the US had diminished their audience. It's now regarded as a masterpiece.

I always liked this record because it felt like The Kinks were thoroughly embracing their Englishness, unlike many of their contemporaries that were trying to appeal to an American audience. In fact, I think this record is totally innovative in that sense: it kind of kick-started the whole Anglo-phile sound in rock.

 

[parman]

I'd have to think Sgt. Peppers is the one if not damn close.

Then again, maybe the most innovative rock album would be the FIRST rock album made?
I'd say being the first at anything that has gone on for 50+ years is pretty innovative...

Don't they consider some LP by Ike Turner the first rock LP? Had a song on it about a Oldsmobile, can't recall the name.

 

[jbbikerider]

2 favs

Allman Brothers Band, live at Fillmore East 1971, and

Pink Floyd the 2 cd version of the wall.

 

[robgmn]

Don't they consider some LP by Ike Turner the first rock LP? Had a song on it about a Oldsmobile, can't recall the name.

Most of the time it gets credited to Bill Haley, but I'm sure there are references to earlier/other recordings.

Here's the deal though (regarding "innovators" and I'll continue the Nirvana theme): an album that is publicly credited with starting/innovating the trend is probably the one that did it, even though someone else may have been there first.

Grunge may have been around long before Nirvana (see Mudhouse, Melvins, Soundgarden, etc.), but the popularity of the style surged after they became a commercial hit. When that happens, the popular credit does not go to the first person/group to produce it (just as in my lightbulb, radio and telephone analogies).
Had the popularity never surged, how innovative would you consider the very first grunge bands to be?

A guy posted on another thread about designing/selling a new device that sounds like an iPod dock with a UV sanitizer built in.
If the device is never a commercial hit, will you consider it innovative?
What if a major mfgr. copies the idea and makes it a huge seller?
THEY will be considered innovative, NOT the guy who did it first and got nowhere with it.
It's been happening for hundreds of years and will probably continue forever.

 

[nbarber]

Maybe I missed it somewhere in this thread but I'll have to say Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath. At a time when rock music was dwindling into an over-commercialized state with good musicians putting out mediocre offerings and mediocre musicians capitalizing on the popularity of "that 60's sound" and putting out truly awful music Black Sabbath changed the direction of rock music. Poppy, feel good melodies were to become a thing of t he past and dark, brooding themes were going to take us into the 70's. I have read many mentions of the Grunge movement in this post but Kim Thyil, Mark Arm and Kurt Cobain all owe a huge debt of gratitude to Tony Iommi.

 

[steelglam]

Most of the time it gets credited to Bill Haley, but I'm sure there are references to earlier/other recordings.

Here's the deal though (regarding "innovators" and I'll continue the Nirvana theme): an album that is publicly credited with starting/innovating the trend is probably the one that did it, even though someone else may have been there first.

Grunge may have been around long before Nirvana (see Mudhouse, Melvins, Soundgarden, etc.), but the popularity of the style surged after they became a commercial hit. When that happens, the popular credit does not go to the first person/group to produce it (just as in my lightbulb, radio and telephone analogies).
Had the popularity never surged, how innovative would you consider the very first grunge bands to be?

A guy posted on another thread about designing/selling a new device that sounds like an iPod dock with a UV sanitizer built in.
If the device is never a commercial hit, will you consider it innovative?
What if a major mfgr. copies the idea and makes it a huge seller?
THEY will be considered innovative, NOT the guy who did it first and got nowhere with it.
It's been happening for hundreds of years and will probably continue forever.

I really think that you are confusing terms here. Innovation does not equal popularity. People popularize innovations, sure, but that's a different process.

The definition of innovation is literally: "make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products."

In fact, it seems the antithesis of popularity when considered in those terms. Something new that changes something established, with the something established implicitly being the popular thing.

Regardless, taking your argument on its own terms, you then get into ideas about thresholds for determining popularity. Nirvana came up in a very specific, widespread, and thriving underground scene, and those involved with that scene knew that the Melvins were innovative. Just because some suburban kid who didn't know a thing about grunge or punk rock before Nirvana had no idea about it means it's not innovative? Why does that audience get to be the arbiter of what is and is not innovative? That's arbitrary and narrow, if you ask me.

How about this: Nirvana were influenced by the innovative approaches of some of their Pacific NW forebears, made their own contribution to the sound, and had the biggest hand in bringing a heretofore unknown-to-the-mainstream sound to mainstream audiences.

Really this all traces back to Flipper. Flipper were the band that started this whole thing. They influenced Black Flag to slow down and Melvins. Listen to the first Flipper album and you'll see where this sound started. And the first time that Nirvana performed on Saturday Night Live, guess what shirt Kurt Cobain was wearing? A Flipper t-shirt (he also wore it in the video for "Come As You Are").

 

[toddalin]

Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick

2 sides of LP - one song
Truly Progressive album
Packaging of a newspaper

:thmbsp:

 

[robgmn]

I really think that you are confusing terms here. Innovation does not equal popularity. People popularize innovations, sure, but that's a different process.

The definition of innovation is literally: "make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products."

In fact, it seems the antithesis of popularity when considered in those terms. Something new that changes something established, with the something established implicitly being the popular thing.

Regardless, taking your argument on its own terms, you then get into ideas about thresholds for determining popularity. Nirvana came up in a very specific, widespread, and thriving underground scene, and those involved with that scene knew that the Melvins were innovative. Just because some suburban kid who didn't know a thing about grunge or punk rock before Nirvana had no idea about it means it's not innovative? Why does that audience get to be the arbiter of what is and is not innovative? That's arbitrary and narrow, if you ask me.

How about this: Nirvana were influenced by the innovative approaches of some of their Pacific NW forebears, made their own contribution to the sound, and had the biggest hand in bringing a heretofore unknown-to-the-mainstream sound to mainstream audiences.

Really this all traces back to Flipper. Flipper were the band that started this whole thing. They influenced Black Flag to slow down and Melvins. Listen to the first Flipper album and you'll see where this sound started. And the first time that Nirvana performed on Saturday Night Live, guess what shirt Kurt Cobain was wearing? A Flipper t-shirt (he also wore it in the video for "Come As You Are").

No, I understand exactly what you and the other posters mean, but it IS a popularity vote when it comes down to it.

As I said, the TRUE innovator often does not receive the credit for what they did, but maybe it's because the masses never latched on to that innovation until someone else made it happen (by choice or plain luck).

Popular opinion, while not always CORRECT, is inherently "right" (you can cry that your creation is better than someone else's, but when someone else makes the fortune and you don't, it means something. Think of all the people who are happy to state that McDonald's food tastes like garbage and they can create a better product. Tell that to all of the millionaires who own the franchises and their stock).

Sit and talk about MySpace being the original and Facebook being the imitator. In a few years, ask a pre-teen about MySpace and they'll probably say "My-what?".
Yes, dumbass Cobain wore a Flipper tee shirt for his appearance and was influenced by those other bands.
How many of those other bands appeared on SNL?

I've threadjacked the OP too much, though.
I'll leave it here.

 

[Raynie]

It's gotta be the Velvet Underground & Nico. Without it, 25-50% of what comes after in rock never happens.

Tommy

Let's not be ridiculous... lol

 

[steelglam]

No, I understand exactly what you and the other posters mean, but it IS a popularity vote when it comes down to it.

As I said, the TRUE innovator often does not receive the credit for what they did, but maybe it's because the masses never latched on to that innovation until someone else made it happen (by choice or plain luck).

Popular opinion, while not always CORRECT, is inherently "right" (you can cry that your creation is better than someone else's, but when someone else makes the fortune and you don't, it means something. Think of all the people who are happy to state that McDonald's food tastes like garbage and they can create a better product. Tell that to all of the millionaires who own the franchises and their stock).

Sit and talk about MySpace being the original and Facebook being the imitator. In a few years, ask a pre-teen about MySpace and they'll probably say "My-what?".
Yes, dumbass Cobain wore a Flipper tee shirt for his appearance and was influenced by those other bands.
How many of those other bands appeared on SNL?

I've threadjacked the OP too much, though.
I'll leave it here.

I'm not sure that I agree with or understand your distinction between correct and right, but I see your point about popular vs. innovative.

And more like awesome Cobain wore a Flipper shirt for his appearance! I love that Kurt Cobain gave credit where credit was due and used his popularity to spread the word about the bands that he loved that did not achieve the same level of commercial success.

As for how many of those other bands appeared on SNL, that's neither here nor there.

Anyways, I'll leave it here as well.

 

[steelglam]

Let's not be ridiculous... lol

I don't think that's ridiculous at all, especially if you're talking about rock music. The Velvet Underground were responsible for jumpstarting several entire genres of music: punk, alternative/college/indie rock, noise rock, etc. Even metal artists have cited them as an influence. And they were one of several contemporaries that jumpstarted experimental rock.

They're surely one of the top 5 most influential artists in rock history.