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Vintage CD players

As I am currently considering going on the hunt for a vintage CDP, I figured I would resurrect this thread...
Some words of unsolicited advice ... but, I speak from experience here: high end, vintage players and some mid-range models are extremely attractive from the point of view of build quality. Some of the of these kick out excellent sound. And a lot of them can serve as excellent drives for outboard DAC's. I am currently using a Yamaha CDX-1020, a domestic Japanese model from the c. 1987.

Be aware and calculate your milage in this regard: ALL the laser heads eventually dim and fail. Now, some of these units have very affordable heads that are easy to obtain. Others use types that are more difficult — in some cases very difficult to find — and they can be very expensive. I have a very nice Denon DP-990SG — not quite TOTL ... but very close. It has a die cast sled and it is built like the Eiffel Tower. It has a chip set similar to a richer scaled player described a few posts ago. I'd like to use it to drive a Moinica-3 DAC, but it will not play burned disks that I have edited and collected.

I could take the unit to Kenwod and make sure that everything is aligned properly and so on. I might recap the power supply section and make sure everything is getting lots of the correct juice. But, whatever time, money and trouble I go to may be just a waste .... unless I make the leap and locate a new laser head ....

If I can atually find one. The head is going to cost me in the area of a $ 200. Now if the head was a unit costing something under $50 like the ones in my Sony CDP-222ES, Sansui alpha-607, or even the Yamaha I might spring for the new head. But come on ... 150 to 200 clams?

You cannot go wrong with some makes and models. If you find a unit with twin X-formers, die cast sled, copper plated chassis, factory installed dampening and top/bottom covers like armor plate you can rest assured that any new parts will be justified and it will be a hell of a drive for a DAC regardless of what chipset it came with — and in some cases may be the player to die for all on its own. YMMV.

Mind you, when the mania hits you, I also know from experience that nothing will stand in your way to acquire whatever it is that captures your fancy. Any high-end, vintage player is a good gamble — IF it is cheap enough. It is a diservice to all of us when buyers pay premium bucks for vintage units that are really just door stops. I didn't pay much for the Kenny, but I'm still shy to shell out hundreds on it. I may use the power supply for something.

Let us know what you get, and happy hunting!
 
Some words of unsolicited advice ... but, I speak from experience here: high end, vintage players and some mid-range models are extremely attractive from the point of view of build quality. Some of the of these kick out excellent sound. And a lot of them can serve as excellent drives for outboard DAC's. I am currently using a Yamaha CDX-1020, a domestic Japanese model from the c. 1987.

Be aware and calculate your milage in this regard: ALL the laser heads eventually dim and fail. Now, some of these units have very affordable heads that are easy to obtain. Others use types that are more difficult — in some cases very difficult to find — and they can be very expensive. I have a very nice Denon DP-990SG — not quite TOTL ... but very close. It has a die cast sled and it is built like the Eiffel Tower. It has a chip set similar to a richer scaled player described a few posts ago. I'd like to use it to drive a Moinica-3 DAC, but it will not play burned disks that I have edited and collected.

I could take the unit to Kenwod and make sure that everything is aligned properly and so on. I might recap the power supply section and make sure everything is getting lots of the correct juice. But, whatever time, money and trouble I go to may be just a waste .... unless I make the leap and locate a new laser head ....

If I can atually find one. The head is going to cost me in the area of a $ 200. Now if the head was a unit costing something under $50 like the ones in my Sony CDP-222ES, Sansui alpha-607, or even the Yamaha I might spring for the new head. But come on ... 150 to 200 clams?

You cannot go wrong with some makes and models. If you find a unit with twin X-formers, die cast sled, copper plated chassis, factory installed dampening and top/bottom covers like armor plate you can rest assured that any new parts will be justified and it will be a hell of a drive for a DAC regardless of what chipset it came with — and in some cases may be the player to die for all on its own. YMMV.

Mind you, when the mania hits you, I also know from experience that nothing will stand in your way to acquire whatever it is that captures your fancy. Any high-end, vintage player is a good gamble — IF it is cheap enough. It is a diservice to all of us when buyers pay premium bucks for vintage units that are really just door stops. I didn't pay much for the Kenny, but I'm still shy to shell out hundreds on it. I may use the power supply for something.

Let us know what you get, and happy hunting!

Excellent advice and well heeded, Lorne. I'm going to check my local shops and see what there is to be had for cheap, as well as do some online reading and ask questions as anyone should do before making a purchase. If I get burned once along the way it won't be for much, because I'm not going to throw a large amount of cash at any vintage CD player, and if I do get burned once then I'll opt for a newer unit, since I've read several times that today's cheap CD units are in many instances better than their predecessors that cost many times more.
 
The In and Outs of Vintage CDP — longish

... and if I do get burned once then I'll opt for a newer unit, since I've read several times that today's cheap CD units are in many instances better than their predecessors that cost many times more.

Just how true is this? Much has been made over this issue, and it is said over and over again. I am no expert, but I have formed some opinions after reading in these forums and other places — in particular a series of articles on digital audio on the TNT Audio site.

The control of jitter is of paramount importance. Their are many sources of jitter, and all of them may be better controlled by more modern chip sets in CDP's. Modern chips have the ability to induce better error correction. But the best solution is to have a cleaner, less corrupt bit-stream in the first place. And this is where the advantage of vintage higher-end comes into play.

Many of the older, high quality players came with excellent materials, robust build and extravagant power supplies. Much of this sort of thing gets added to today's budget players by way of DIY modification. And you'll pay a big buck to have a lab do it for you. So the fact that you start off with a quality item in a premier product of years gone by is an advantage for those wanting a transport to drive a DAC unit.

The transport solution may be a good work-around for the chip set issue, but it is not one of pure gain. The vintage owner is still left with the big processor chip. Personally, this does not worry me because many of these older mother boards could make very nice sound if a good stream was supplied to them. Some enthusiast who really knows what they are doing (which excludes me) change out DAC chips and op amps — the latter being an obsession with some people in the same way tube rolling is for glass audio. Still others go the transport route. But, alas there are issues that concern jitter, compatibility and re-clocking of the SPDIF data stream. The result may be that while you gain in some areas, you may lose in others. A TNT article concluded that the one box idea did have definite advantages.

To many, the idea that first, second or even third generation players made excellent sound is a heresy. But, you only have to look into forums here on AK to see how entrenched this heresy has become — take the dedicated thread on the Yamaha CDX series, for example. These enthusiasts love their machines, and many of the users are into the one-box solution. Yes the chip sets are obsolete, but the overall effect is sonically pleasing.

If I were to pass over vintage CDP and were constrained by a budget, I'd give CDP a miss and move straight on to DVD players that have been proven to have a focus on decent audio. In these forums there's been a lot of fuss over the cheap Toshiba DVD — some of which I have contributed. Some users have reported excellent results in machines a few notches up from the cheapest Tosh.

I for one am very pleased with my Yamaha CDX-1020. In the coming days/weeks it will get a Monica-3 DAC — non up-sampling, no re-clock. I am just finishing building a linear power supply for it now.

Now comes a case in point. For the last few years I was using the earlier Monica-2 DAC from DIY Paradise. This was an excellent unit, and you can read appreciative raves about it all over the block. Like Monica-3 it was non-upsampling, but it was re-clocked using a Kyocera 80 MHz oscillator. I powered it with a 12 VDC SLA motorcycle battery. With a contemporary Marantz CD-6000 or any of my mid-market vintage players such as the Sony 222ES or Sansui alpha-607, the improvement was a significant no-brainer. The digi-thing was completely tamed, and the Monica charm made a whole new environment. Then one day the CDX arrived at the door. And so I compared the two options ... (a) the CDX-one-box, and (b) the CDX as transport for Monica. The result: to my ears there was a difference, but it was not so much one of quality as it was of preference. Both solutions equalled each other in that some kinds of music fared better with Monica, while others were better with the integral CDX.

This should be understood in terms of just how good the old Yammy is — not how compromised Monica is. Now some blokes will say, "Yeah, but Monica's TDA1545A is not the newest DAC chip around!." And they will be correct, except for the fact that this chip is still a favored product and will be so in the foreseeable future. Monica-3 uses the same chip, and she promises to be even more of a giant killer than her older sister. In fact, I expect her to top the CDX one-box. Actually, I am counting on it!

For me personally, high quality vintage CDP is the way to go. It's not a given verity, but rather like choosing to collect Desotos or exotic toasters. And, reinforcing what I have said above, if and when the piggies get hold of the market and start jacking up prices over on eBay and other places, I'll recommend something entirely different. Vintage CDP should come cheap, or not at all. It's fun!

Wine drinkers know that if you do a lot of careful shopping, know how to read wine labels, do some research and indulge in judicious sampling, you will eventually come up with a bottle that comes at near plonk prices but tastes almost as good as a wine that costs about the same as your monthly car payment. Now that is fun, but you have to invest the time and energy — and take some risks.
 
My museum piece baby (Yamaha CD-1):

hlrphacyla8scfmvu5ed.jpg


I prefer this unit over the Sony CDP-701ES, which I have also owned. Similar in sound, though the Yamaha seems a bit more analog and warm to my ears.

Some really nice units that are not to be overlooked, imho:

Pioneer PD-S95 transport (get one if you can).
Phillips LHH-1000 transport and DAC (get one if you can; especially with the Crown DAC chip).
Denon DCD-3520 (pretty darn respectable, though not in the same league as above).
Pioneer PD-65 and 75 are very nice. Most of those stable platter units have a nice sound.

I've owned all of the above units. I'm sure I've owned more, such as the Mission DAD-7000 (nice if you exchange the set RCA outs and modify using some nice, gold RCA females on the back of the unit with your own cables).
 
I'm sure I've owned more, such as the Mission DAD-7000 (nice if you exchange the set RCA outs and modify using some nice, gold RCA females on the back of the unit with your own cables).
I'm glad you mentioned Mission, sigloxx. Back in the day I went to a New Years party hosted by the family that controlled that company. The entire system was Mission — from soup to nuts — and the source was CD. I was astonished at how good it sounded. Mind you, some of it was a one-off ... but still. I'll be on the look-out for Mission CDP's, although here in Japan the brand seems to be entirely missing.
 
If you're handy with electronics, you could modify some vintage CDPs with analog audio tube buffers and outputs.
Like many of us I can wield a soldering pencil, but I'd need a step-by-step set of instructions to do something like this. Perhaps over time I can absorb enough of your page to try something in my old Sansui CDP. Really nice page, but I wish the pics could zoom into greater rez and detail. I'd love to eyeball the work close up. But thanks ... I know the bandwidth would have to ramp up a lot.
 
The entire system was Mission — from soup to nuts — and the source was CD. I was astonished at how good it sounded. Mind il, some of it was a one-off ... but still. I'll be on the look-out for Mission CDP's, although here in Japan the brand seems to be entirely missing.

You'd have basically been looking at a modified Philips system, a la Mission; if it was the 7000. Nothing really ultra special for Mission, I'm afraid. If I remember correctly; similar, or same, Burr Brown DAC conversion; and telling one apart from their Philips counterpart may have been reasonably difficult. I can't personally say for sure, as I've never done an A/B comparison b/w Mission and Philips gear of that period.

During that time, Mission was quite respected, however.
 
For me personally, high quality vintage CDP is the way to go. It's not a given verity, but rather like choosing to collect Desotos or exotic toasters. And, reinforcing what I have said above, if and when the piggies get hold of the market and start jacking up prices over on eBay and other places, I'll recommend something entirely different. Vintage CDP should come cheap, or not at all. It's fun!

Interesting points my friend. I have no immediate plans to do any CDP surgery, mainly because I'm still in the learning stage when it comes to electronics. I'm already seeing some rather robust prices on the ePay site in regards to specific flavors of vintage CDPs, but I'm going to keep watching the waters. What is blowing my mind is I'm seeing some less than notable CD players going for more than some nifty vintage amps and receivers!
 
This is an interesting resurrection thread. I've had soo many CDPs and the other day I was researching what made a good vintage CDP. I came up with the TDA1541 chip. Read about it and actually tried to find a CDP on ebay with that chip and guess what the prices are pretty high. So the folks that do know about vintage CDP players with quality chips are out there and known. I've got a very very good CDP - HHB burnit
that sounds great but I wanted to get a vintage unit on the cheap and looked for that vernable 1541 chip CDP and they are not cheap. In fact there's a kind of cult following out there and some of the players with that chip look like BPC. Go figure... There are a few Sony ES players that have that chip that have been mentioned on this thread as well as Liam and a bunch of others but there are folks that know what they are and drive the prices up. There are a few lists on the net that list the players with that chip I mentioned. Again I tried to locate a few CDPs with that chip and they are not cheap. I'm on the lookout ..

Cheers,

Bob
 
The non-ES Sony CDP-750 has the TDA1541 chip too. The 550 and 350 below it do not, FWIW. I had a 750 many years ago...I'd love another one. I loved the separate index up/down keys it had, perfect for going between sections of the long Rush tunes (on the original Polygram reissues of Hemispheres etc. the long sections are indexed...ditto for the Polygram issue of Five Bridges by The Nice. No idea if the current reissues are mastered thus...)

Todd in Cheesecurdistan
 
When I was looking to put together a CD rig, I didn't want to spend a ton of scratch (since most of my listeneing was going to be on vinyl), and I wanted to work a little tube warmth into things, so I went with a used Cambridge CD4SE (around $200 from Spearit Sound) and a Cal Audio Sigma II tube DAC ($250 on EBay)...the nice thing about this rig was I was able to use a BNC connector (which, supposedly, is an excellent transmitter of digital audio signals).

I've never heard a really high-end CD rig, but for less than $500, I'm pretty pleased with my setup.
 
I dont know why its taken me so long to post in here. My frequent trips to the thrifts yielded me several vintage players and have been just as happy with those as I have been with my newer Phillips 963.

Here is a list of what I have
Luxman DX-104 (first one)
Denon DCD-1500
Sony CDP-102 with remote and all the paper work.
Keyocera 610 (stopped reading discs)
Shure (was told it was an NEC) that I accidently kicked down the stairs
and
A rotel RCD-855
I have to clean house too many players
 
I have several Sony ES units, C85Es, 520-ES, and 209ES. I like them very much. I also have several Adcoms that I like very much. Not so vintage, but still a nice sound. I don't think quite as good as the Sonys, but that's just opinion.

I also have run several Tascam cd-writers. Never a complaint, but i think the Sonys still sound better.

The bad thing about buying vintage units, is that lots of times they absolutely needed recaps. I have had several just regular vintage units that hissed beyond belief.
 
Question on (NAD) CD repair

I've searched around for a CD repair thread and this is the closest I could find, so please redirect me if there is a better place...
I just got an NAD 5325 CD player by UPS - not well packed, and without the three transport screws. I was told it was shipped in working order, but now it will not find the CD. It shows '1' briefly on display, then 'dIsc'. (It was an Xmas gift to myself do it was a bit of a blow).What might have happened? Is it likely to be :
1. adjustment?
2. broken part?
3. forget it ?

thanks!
 
After much reading here I decided to track down a Sony ES player. I pulled the trigger on what seems to be a highly regarded unit that became available for what seems to be a decent price on the surface.... $60 for a Sony CDP-650ES DII. Not a GW or thrift shop price, but if it's in good shape I will certainly feel it is money well spent.

As I'm buying untested that remains to be seen, but hopefully I'll get a unit in good shape. Description given is good working order and good physical shape, so we'll see. I know there are Sony models that are held in higher regard, but this seems to be a good place for me to get started.
 
After much reading here I decided to track down a Sony ES player. I pulled the trigger on what seems to be a highly regarded unit that became available for what seems to be a decent price on the surface.... $60 for a Sony CDP-650ES DII. Not a GW or thrift shop price, but if it's in good shape I will certainly feel it is money well spent.

I'm not sure, but doesn't that require an external DAC? Or does the DII designation mean it has a DAC inboard?
 
Hi Troubleshoot: BTW I got your PM. I did a preliminary search on your CDP-650ESD II. I did not come up with a lot. But, our friend Axel, who owns The Vintage Knob site, indicates a family resemblance in his Sony ES section: 552ESD; CDP-650ESD; 555ESD; 705ESD. Does the 650ESD II belong in the list? I can't be sure. One thing is though, they are at variance in terms of their chips and pickups. You see here:

http://www.marantzphilips.nl/the_complete_d_a_dac_converter_list/#O.

I think that the price you paid is within the ballpark of modesty. So if the unit is a family member of some sort, and if it plays, I think that you should be satisfied.

The DAC chip is not among in the most sought-after catagory — IMHO. That does not mean that that there is anything wrong with it. Yamaha used the same DAC in their initial CD-1, and then in the CD-2 and maybe in the CD-3. That's encouraging. And, according to how it is engineered into the entire circuit, it may perform very well. OK, so this was an early unit, but if it is anything like say the 555ESD, I for one would have snagged it for the $60. If nothing else, it should make an excellent transport.

And it is here that perhaps I may be able to answer the question posed by Damage.The 'D' suffix indicates the capacity for digital bit stream data OUT, so you can use any outboard DAC you want. The 650ESD was the first Sony to allow this. In fact it may have been the first in the world. The CDP-650ESD II has its own on-board DAC, the Burr Brown PCM-53. The CDP-650ESD uses the PCM-54

As a transport, I don't think that you can go wrong — not for that price. The BU-1C pickup should be easy to get, and a cursory glance tells me it ain't on the stratospheric price list. Two outboard transformers bolted onto the back bulkhead — is that right? Way cool! It was a common Sony application back in the day. Try and repeat THAT build for $60 on a normal day.

So my take on this unit (since you asked) is this: get it running. See how it performs and how it reads various discs. You may like it 'as is', or you may want to think about a Scott Nixon, a DIY Paradise Monica-3 or one of the other outboard, non-oversampling DAC giant killers. Such a combination could easily put you in the position of getting some really excellent sound without having to spend a fortune in the high-end zone. I for one am in support of the idea that so-called obsolete players can be used as the most solid transports for a number of important reasons I've mentioned before — not the least of which is the power supply.

Because of the age of this unit, I'd be VERY bent towards changing out the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply board. If you can solder, get some good quality, low ESR caps. In this unit, you should be able to access the board through the bottom — is that right? There are probably a half dozen to a dozen caps involved. If you get that far we can tell you where to go to read about capacitor suggestions — brand and series. (There is no need to spend a fortune here; low ESR caps as used in industry would be fine.) The caps applicable to power supply should be relatively easy to identify, and changing them should pose little or no risk to the rest of the circuit. Believe me (others may disagree with me) these capacitors will be compromised by now, even (and perhaps especially) if they have been sitting doing nothing for decades. If any electronics ever needed solid power supply, it was/is digital.
 
I think that the price you paid is within the ballpark of modesty. So if the unit is a family member of some sort, and if it plays, I think that you should be satisfied.

As a transport, I don't think that you can go wrong — not for that price. The BU-1C pickup should be easy to get, and a cursory glance tells me it ain't on the stratospheric price list. Two outboard transformers bolted onto the back bulkhead — is that right? Way cool! It was a common Sony application back in the day. Try and repeat THAT build for $60 on a normal day.

Hi Lorne,

That you for the input!

I would have loved to be one of the Akers who can boast that they found one of these suckers at the local thrift shop for $10 but alas, twas not the case. I do figure that if it is performing in the range it did when built then $60 is a good price anyway.

From what I'm seeing in pictures of the innards of this grand old beast it does indeed seem to boast two outboard transformers. Having just taken a college class in electricity, that should make for a formidable amount of lines of flux creation! In regards to the mods that can be preformed on the board, I'm not at a level where I'm confident to make all of the improvements possible yet but my best friend is a career electronics whiz and I figure for a case of Bud those changes can be had. :scratch2:
 
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